I too, am sad over what I saw in the annual meeting tent Tuesday. It would be easy to feel angry, hurt, discouraged, betrayed, etc. I felt most of those emotions. We were already divided before we came to annual meeting. I think many of us were hoping for some kind of "nice" resolution, to bridge the gap, but it was too wide. The preaching up until Tuesday afternoon was powerful.
From the beginning of the early church, satan used the issues of grace verses law to divide the church. The church at Corinth had some of the same issues dividing us. "Hats and bonnets' aren't dividing us. It's the bigger issue of one group believing that following the jot and title of the law will save us and another group believing it's all about grace. Law is the school master that brings us to Christ, then we walk by faith, obeying Christ's commands out of love and the works will follow. We must have balance of law and grace, balance of faith and works.
"He who would be great in the kingdom of God must be a servant to all." "And the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient." II Titus 2:24, Where was that patient spirit, the easy to be entreated (approachable), gentle spirit Tuesday? We were told the decision was final there would be no questions.
I had the think of how final the law of the Meads and Persians was. Their unquestionable authority was the final word. But the king found a way around that final decree he had made at Haman's request, to have all the Jews killed. I believe God directed that "way around the law" to save His people.
As we got off the plane Wednesday we heard about the awesome Elders meeting in Modesto Wednesday night that lasted from 6:00 till 3:00 Thursday morning. Some of those elders made the sacrifice of cancelling flights home, to stay and work for the good of the body.
Tuesday showed us that we can't put our faith in man, or denominations, but only in the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to be careful about criticizing the brethren who were involved in handling things they way they were handled. (And I'm speaking to myself) God may have allowed that to happen to bring about the needed changes in our fellowship. God is still in control and I believe we are going to see some good things come out of Tuesday's decisions. Birthing is painful! When God closes door it's usually because He has a better one to open for us.
Lets keep our focus on Jesus and pray for one another, Especially for the elders who carry the weight of these decisions, on both sides.
"In all our ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct our paths!"
I too, am sad over what I saw in the annual meeting tent Tuesday. It would be easy to feel angry, hurt, discouraged, betrayed, etc. I felt most of those emotions. We were already divided before we came to annual meeting. I think many of us were hoping for some kind of "nice" resolution, to bridge the gap, but it was too wide. The preaching up until Tuesday afternoon was powerful.From the beginning of the early church, satan used the issues of grace verses law to divide the church. The church at Corinth had some of the same issues dividing us. "Hats and bonnets' aren't dividing us. It's the bigger issue of one group believing that following the jot and title of the law will save us and another group believing it's all about grace. Law is the school master that brings us to Christ, then we walk by faith, obeying Christ's commands out of love and the works will follow. We must have balance of law and grace, balance of faith and works."He who would be great in the kingdom of God must be a servant to all." "And the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient." II Titus 2:24, Where was that patient spirit, the easy to be entreated (approachable), gentle spirit Tuesday? We were told the decision was final there would be no questions.I had the think of how final the law of the Meads and Persians was. Their unquestionable authority was the final word. But the king found a way around that final decree he had made at Haman's request, to have all the Jews killed. I believe God directed that "way around the law" to save His people.As we got off the plane Wednesday we heard about the awesome Elders meeting in Modesto Wednesday night that lasted from 6:00 till 3:00 Thursday morning. Some of those elders made the sacrifice of cancelling flights home, to stay and work for the good of the body.
Comments (33)
O... sigh.
"It would be easy to feel angry, hurt, discouraged, betrayed, etc."
I still don't get it. Those committee members represent what the OGBBC has ALWAYS taught and believes. Even YOU, Mom, have in past conversations with me expressed AGREEMENT with the very things that are spelled on in that committee report. You cited the example of Ananias and Sapphira as your proof text!
Those 18 elders are merely doing all they can to hold the denomination together around THE VERY DOCTRINES that the OGBBC is founded on!
Why are so many people feeling shocked, angry, hurt, discouraged, and betrayed when 18 German Baptist elders simply act like German Baptists. There is nothing new here! These are German Baptists acting like German Baptists.
Let's put it this way. What if I came on here and expressed that I felt shocked or hurt or betrayed because no one at Bear Creek offered to wash my feet at their recent Communion service. Wouldn't you look at me and say, "You shouldn't be surprised by that, David; Of course no one would do that!"? That is because I expect German Baptists to ACT LIKE German Baptists! Did you expect the 18 elders to not act like they did?? I didn't. That is because German Baptists live out what they believe.
And you can take this statement to the bank: What German Baptists SAY they believe and what they actually practice are often completely contradictory.
Take the statement, "The New Testament is our only creed." Since day one I have known better than to believe that statement. It is a lie. That is because the way German Baptists act contradicts that statement. I would never be so foolish as to believe a German Baptist who would make such a ridiculous claim to me. It is a lie, and it is as plain as the nose on your face.
I still believe God is in control and that good will come from this. I have't seen the terms of the committee paper unless it's the one that's been circulating on the internet. (GBMole)If that's the paper then we can't sign it and we will no longer be OGBs. Which is probably what will happen. But that's ok as I said in my post. It's not the denomination that saves us and I have never believed that. The majority who won't be able to sign that paper are the OGB people I identify with.
There are many GBs who believe as I do that Salvation is only though faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Cnrist, and the GB fellowhsip is a support group of believers who follow Christ with the same interpertation of His Word. The issue here is law verses grace. "Having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect by the law?" The law can't save us. It is only our school master to led us to Christ. When we accept His salvation and are filled with His Holy Spirit, the "works" will follow.
I can't remember all our past xanga conversations, but I've never held to the letter of the law of the OGBC. I've always believed the minutes were advisory.
I enjoyed Your above letter ! As a Christian Man , I hurt because My Brethren and Sisters hurt , I was once a member along side each of Them and grew to the point that the POLITICS of this sect became unrealistic to Me in My search for My Own SALVATION .........
Everyone needs to find PRAYER TIME through these hard trials and quit assuming that this is going to happen or not . Anger has ONLY ONE PLACE and that is "at sin" ! To many are being ANGERED at One Another and this is not an attribute of SERVING ONE ANOTHER . It saddenes Me to see the above note and others "blasting" the doctrine of something that once was good and now has decrepencies in there agreeing One to Another .
Why is it that somone within , cannot just leave and go on there own pathes rather than causing such riffs in the system ? Why must it keep being what Humans believe is right and just , We ALL know We are "sinners" , or I do at least ! I fail daily and through Jesus I am renewed in My ability to admit that I am wrong , that I have failed , that I am a sinner , My opinion is warped , I am here for GOD's Purpose and His alone ......
All the therapy and counselling that I have journeyed through has taught Me that I can ONLY CHANGE Me , Brent . In Me changing , Me learning , education , growth is accumulated and I reflect that My anger was at My Own inability to change . I did not want any change for Myself , I wanted to change Everyone around Me , make Them understand there wrongs ! I found fault in every Minister , every sermon , every Person , My Wife , Our Children . My Inlaws , "My Church", My Brethren and Sisters .......... In reflection , I realize and it is very hard to digest that I , SELF was wrong .
The Scripture shows that every man from Adam to Moses to Paul to Job , King David , all of the Biblical Men had to fight these same demons , SELF . Once I was able to intune with Myself , see Myself as imperfect w/o Christ , a sinner , having NO FEAR of GOD , I was able to change . Everyone needs to self examine in these times and become renewed in Our FAITH that GOD is just pruning the vine so that better fruit may grace the vine , Glory Given to Him , no man taking any credit ...............
Change is good , recession is good , failure is good , losing is good for it all becomes RENEWAL in Christ Jesus . In the Scripture great nations rose and fell , Cities were built and destroyed , Families were built and then failed , dynasties arose and then diminished , men were tempted and sinned and then GOD offered His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON for what ? Forgiveness ............
Serving One Another with a heart and mind of FORGIVENESS is essential in these times . Forget who is right and who is wrong , become rightous through this Forgiveness and help these struggling SOULS whomever they might be to see that SELF has no dominion in the Kingdom of GOD , none !
Love one another in this Family of fellow Christians forsaking the bonds and rules and politics of these self proclaimed sects called "CHURCHES" . To many men are promoting there SELF in these sects and thus misleading the congregations into SELFISHNESS . Whoa be the man that sways a SOUL in His SELF Promotions and Ways , being as a Leader or Law ! I fear My GOD and His wrath that will rain down upon these that mislead His sheep into added laws and regulations . Follow the guidelines within the Scriptures that GOD requires and no more . Man's additions are simply added weight or burdens that are keeping the saints from the path of Rightousness . The Scripture tells Me to give My burdens to Jesus , not to receive more burdens by My fellow Brethren in there quest to create the perfect Church ............Heaven ...........
A burden of My heart , musings to help those that need assistance , education that needs to be allocated for the saving of Souls ...........
Harsh words to someone who believes They know more or better than the rest or masses ........... Meditate and fast , renew Ourselves .........
You spoke of SERVING, DENYING SELF, LOVE and FORGIVENESS! More powerful tools for getting along with others and creating peace.
I liked your reminder that we are only the branches. We are fed through the Vine. To grow we must stay connected to that vine or we will die.
Another good point you brought out, is that change and even failure is for our good. Failure brings about brokeness and God meets us when we are in a broken state. When the vessel is broken God will often create a beautiful new vessel to His glory and honor. We must be willing to be poured out like wine, so that His sweetness can touch the hurting dying souls around us. Unless we are willing to be broken, there is danger that the ROCK will fall on us and we will be crushed. I know that many brethren felt like what they held dear was broken last Tuesday. But praise GOd, now He can create a vessel, a group, that is beautifully filled with His Spirit and His love, if we are just willing to fall on the Rock and be used and filled by the Master creater.
@mom1945 - “I expected the brethren to reason together like before. What surprised me was the way the moderator said ‘APPROVED’ when the voice of the church was very obviously against the committee paper.”
That’s ridiculous! If it was that obvious how could they get away with it? What is their version of the story? Besides, watch what happens next, Norma. The majority of the OGBBC will stand with these 18 elders one way or another. Everyone wants to tell me that the “majority” of the OGBBC is opposed to what these 18 elders stand for. We shall see, won’t we? How much do you want to bet me that the majority of the people will remain right where they are under the leadership of these 18 godless idiots? I am so convinced I am correct on this, I would be willing to bet my very soul.
“I was also very surprised that the committee members chosen were almost all from the very conservative element.”
Really? Ask me if I was surprised. NOT! Once again, these are German Baptists simply acting like German Baptists.
“Usually it’s a mix of both elements.”
Sure it is (spoken with all the sarcasm I can muster). Regardless, the majority of German Baptist men don’t have the guts to stand up to the conservatives.
“To me it seemed underhanded and all worked out ahead of time.”
As if that is anything new!
“That is not the brethren way.”
Really? You could have fooled me! Honestly, Norma, my experience is that is and always has been the “brethren way”.
“The OGBC government has always been very democratic and -the voice of the people, not a select few.”
I have always suggested that when a decision is passed it is because the majority of the people agree to it, and then it is incumbent on the minority to simply submit to the decision. Whenever I say that, however, someone invariably protests that the decision passed NOT because it was the mind of the majority but because it was influenced by the conservative minority. So which is it? Are you trying to have it both ways? Has anything really changed here at this AM? Isn’t this the way it has been for years? Isn’t this the way it has always been?
“I’m not sure how the very conservative brethren who are in the minority can hold this power over the majority.”
Really? They have been doing it for years. It is partly because that guys like Roger Rapp haven’t had the guts to stand up to them! Furthermore, I still don’t get whom you are calling the “majority”. Just watch and see, Norma. The majority of the people will express their agreement to the committee report by their silence. There is no doubt in my mind that is what will happen.
“We’ve gone from democracy to dictatorship.”
You act like that just happened this year! I’ve got news for you; it’s been like that for a looong time now.
“Lowell Miller had just preached an awesome message on ‘Balance’ and Daryl Boyd had just preached such a good message on ‘Wisdom’.
So what? Did it have any impact? It obviously didn’t change John Long’s mind. Furthermore, the preaching that comes out of the OGBBC (including from the progressives) is never direct enough to have any real impact. Also, I read the notes of Lowell Miller’s sermon that you took and sent to our friend John Metzger. It was all typical GB rhetoric. It was a PATHETIC sermon, judging by the notes you took. Here is a direct quote taken from your notes: “At other churches they may see men going to church in shorts and brightly flowered shirts…. Is that the heritage you want to pass on to your children?” Lowell’s sermon was just typical judgmental German Baptist rhetoric. And you want to call this an “awesome message”? Give me a break!
“The fact that 69 ministers were concerned enough to cancel their flight home to spend 9 hours trying to undo some of the damage done is encouraging.”
Too little too late, I’m afraid.
“I still believe God is in control and that good will come from this.”
Like what?
“I haven’t seen the terms of the committee paper unless it’s the one that’s been circulating on the internet. (GBMole)”
That’s the one! I have seen the official paper (with the actual signatures). What the mole posted is the word-for-word report.
“If that’s the paper then we can’t sign it and we will no longer be OGBs.”
Guess what? They aren’t asking you to sign it! If you agree with it then you demonstrate that with your SILENCE. That is the way it has always been. If you don’t agree with the report you are going to have to say so. But if you don’t say anything it will simply be assumed that you agree with it.
I have challenged you with this kind of thing before, Norma. I know, for example, that you personally do not believe that your friend Joanie is living in adultery. But your church teaches that she is. You keep silent about YOUR beliefs, of course, because you don’t want to be “contentious” or “sow discord”. You know that your beliefs are not the same as what the OGBBC teaches. The problem is that by your SILENCE you demonstrate agreement with your church. What is happening here is nothing new. Your church is asking you to keep silent if you agree with them, or to speak up if you disagree. At the same time the preaching that you hear in the walls of the church is that those who speak up in disagreement with the church are “contentious” or “railers” or whatever other kind of negative label they can try to pin on you. What you have here is classic passive-aggressive manipulation! The majority of the people are going to keep silent, not necessarily because they agree with the committee report, but because they will be too intimidated to stand up to it. Watch and see, Norma! And some will insist that the majority of the OGBBC does not agree with the committee report EVEN THOUGH they remained silent. So whom should I believe? Should I believe what people tell me with their mouth, or should I believe what people demonstrate by their actions?
“Which is probably what will happen. But that’s ok as I said in my post. It’s not the denomination that saves us and I have never believed that. The majority who won’t be able to sign that paper are the OGB people I identify with.”
You are dreaming, Norma. The majority of the people will remain silent. Thus their agreement will be assumed. Do you honestly think that the majority of the people in the OGBBC are going to say that they disagree with that report? Seriously, are you really that naïve?
“There are many GBs who believe as I do that Salvation is only though faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Cnrist, and the GB fellowhsip is a support group of believers who follow Christ with the same interpretation of His Word.”
Newsflash! That’s what they SAY they believe, but what they actually practice and how they actually live totally contradicts that belief!
“The issue here is law verses grace. ‘Having begun in the Spirit are ye now made perfect by the law?’ The law can’t save us. It is only our school master to led us to Christ. When we accept His salvation and are filled with His Holy Spirit, the ‘works’ will follow.”
So says you. But how German Baptists actually live contradicts that belief. The way German Baptists “do church” completely contradicts what you just said there.
“I can’t remember all our past xanga conversations, but I’ve never held to the letter of the law of the OGBC. I've always believed the minutes were advisory.”
Once again, Norma, this is another example of where you claim one thing with your mouth but totally contradict what you say by your behavior. I would be foolish to believe what you tell me with your mouth when you demonstrate just the opposite by the way you live.
It doesn’t matter that you “believe the minutes are advisory”. Your church doesn’t care if that is what you believe either as long as you continue to remain silent about your belief and abide by the minutes anyway. I have said this hundreds of times, Norma. If my wife and I were members of the OGBBC and we chose to NOT wear the uniform, for example (which is simply an “advisory” rule in the minute book, not a biblical mandate for believers), we would be put out of fellowship. And they would dance around the issue claiming that we weren’t put out of fellowship because of our clothes but because of our rebellious attitude (blah, blah, blah). And I’ve got news for you. The MAJORITY of the OGBBC still believes that would be the RIGHT thing to do! If that can apply to OGBBC rules like your stupid uniforms, it also applies to other stupid OGBBC rules concerning things like the Internet and radios and televisions.
@davidpendleton -
Brother David,
I have been reading your comments on the various blogs since AM. I had thought I would just stay out of the fray and fully intended to, until just awhile ago. After reading your comments above I decided to say a little, even though I have absolutely no time for this at present. I can appreciate your candor; I can even appreciate some of your thinking. However there are differences that we have and will probably always have with regards to Scripture & church. I have told you before, and still fully believe that there are things that any Christian brother or sister must be able to “agree to disagree” about and still be brethren/sisters in Christ. I realize that after I said this before, the discussion dried up. Hopefully you can look beyond that this time.
Many of the things that you have against the OGBBC are matters of interpretation (you and I have discussed this before). I am not going to go into any specifics right now as my time is very limited. The other day you pointed me to a website definition of Passive-Aggressive disorder. At this point, after reading your comments above, I guess I would have to say that this disorder is not limited to just OGBB members in good standing. I detect it in your manner as shown above. Also I will go one step further and say, and I say this with no little hesitation, that in the above comments you remind me of nothing so much as a “good OGGB elder” ( your definition) who worked on the report. Your sweeping all-inclusive vitriolic criticism of OGBB people, your “my way or the highway” attitude, your “my interpretation is right, yours has to be wrong” expressions, all remind me of the controlling powers that used this AM as their platform to move even further into a legalistic society. You are just as hard-line with your beliefs and thoughts as they are. You are just on another side of the fence. You use many of the same ways, mannerisms, and expressions to get where you are going. Maybe this is intentional on your part, and maybe it is who you really are. I am not sure. Your interaction has been mostly limited to a fairly small handful of OGBB (with regards to the whole) and your methods almost always guarantee that you get a reactionary type response. And, yes, I do realize that I am rising to the bait here.
I will heartily agree that there are problems in the OGGB fellowship, (here again, I am not going into detail for time sake) however I do not believe your understanding of the Anabaptist background is deep enough to make the broad statements you make about the church. You do not have a deep understanding of how the church body has worked in years past. (Unfortunately I do not have the understanding that I could or should have but there are persons whom I respect who do) I am not talking about just the last 8 years or so that you have been around, but back to when this church started. I am talking way before the 1881 divide. I may be wrong but that is my feeling. Some of the things you regard as OGBB “law” are seen by many people, not just OGBB, as commands of the scriptures. Just as an OGBB might say, “my interpretation is thus and such, and therefore I choose to do this and fellowship with a like-minded group of believers”; you (DP) say, “my interpretation is this and so, and I don’t think anyone has the right to tell me different, in fact my way is obviously right! ”. It just appears to me to be a very similar way of thinking. Quite obviously it will yield different results while here on earth, but hopefully it will be revealed in heaven that a lot of the “stuff” we argued about here didn’t really matter. It also appears to me that in many of these things we may be straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I am specifically talking about our discussions/ranting here on Xanga, but it could just as easily apply to each of our different methods of worship.
And then there are things that OGBB regard as law that are not scriptural. I think there are a lot of differences of opinion on how some of that should or will go (in any group that says “NO” to the report). It will be interesting to see how some of those things work themselves out in the years to come. However I don’t presently know and I don’t think you do either. So maybe we ought to let that be for now.
In closing I will just say that I realize your penchant for pulling this whole writing apart and looking at each part of it in detail. I know that we can take words, move them or turn them around, and try to back each other in a corner. It is not my intention to do that, nor to respond in kind if that does happen. I have tried to be as clear and concise as I can be, and do not have much time right now for this. But I had to get it “off my chest” so to speak. I will reiterate again my desire to be able to “agree to disagree” and still be brothers in Christ! Trusting that you will read this in the same spirit wherein I have tried to write it.
I will leave the “open/closed Communion” discussion for another time; when I have more time. For as you and I talked about, this would probably make a lot of these disagreements null & void.
Gods Blessings!!
@bafocus_2 - “Your sweeping all-inclusive vitriolic criticism of OGBB people, your ‘my way or the highway’ attitude, your ‘my interpretation is right, yours has to be wrong’ expressions, all remind me of the controlling powers that used this AM as their platform to move even further into a legalistic society.”
With one very important difference. I have no power—I repeat NO POWER—to convince someone against their will. I have no position of authority, perceived or otherwise. In short I have no official platform. I have no power to disfellowship someone if they don’t agree with me. I have no ability to exercise any kind of “church discipline”. I’m just a guy from Fishers, IN that is, in an outspoken (and yes even strong) way, expressing my views. But make no mistake about it; I have no authority or power to wield. All I can do is honestly and candidly express my opinions and beliefs. You see, my friend, I can’t possibly pull out the “my way or the highway” card because I have no authority to do so. If you disagree with me, or if I disagree with you, we have nothing to threaten one another with. In that sense I am not “persecuting” anyone. I have no authority to put people in jail or have them executed. Heck I don’t even come from a “long family of lawyers”.
I am just expressing my opinions (mostly via the Internet, mind you—a place where the people that I am disagreeing with aren’t even supposed to be! 
). I am challenging people on their views.
But I will say this. I am really really tired of being lied to by German Baptists. And I am even more tired of the sweeping generalizations like “yes we have our problems but doesn’t everyone” blah, blah, blah. If you believe something just say so. Do you believe that my wife is dressing immodestly when she wears pants? If you do, then say so. Don’t dance around the question. Just be honest. Am I being honest to a fault? You decide.
“You are just as hard-line with your beliefs and thoughts as they are. You are just on another side of the fence.”
Agreed.
“You use many of the same ways, mannerisms, and expressions to get where you are going. Maybe this is intentional on your part…”
Yes it is intentional. I use some of the very same tactics that they use, but again the very important difference is that I have no power or authority to wield. The best that I can do is simply reason with people from the scriptures. I have no power to “disfellowship” you if you do not agree with me. The OGBBC does, and they are not afraid to wield that power. They do it all the time. They even did it to YOU, my friend. So I guess I don't need to remind you of that. They were wrong in what they did to you—dead wrong.
By the way, I do want to apologize for something. I referred to those 18 elders as “18 godless idiots”. I shouldn’t have said that. It was uncalled for. I’m sorry. Needless-to-say, it is very hard for me to understand where those guys are coming from, but I should have exercised more restraint. I should have just said "18 elders". It was wrong of me to resort to that kind of name-calling. I apologize.
More food for thought...
I received this PM today:
I really appreciate your concern for the OGBBC, and cannot agree more
with your assessment that they are just being "good" German Baptists. I
also agree with your assessment that they will all go right along with
the paper, because deep down, they do believe that the church has the
right and responsibility to require obeisance to their agreed-upon
rules. I come back to the following example: If some OGBBC sister felt
to wear the uniform slightly differently, say with the wrong cut of cap
or slightly variant dress-all very well within the Biblical NT tenets
that they hold to (modesty, etc...)-would the group of non-conservative
elders have a problem with that? You and I know that they would. So
they all agree on some level that the church can kick people out who do
not obey the MB, and therefore will sign the paper.
...................
Just to clarify again... No one is being asked to "sign the paper". Silence is the same as a signature in this case. Only the ones who disagree are being asked to pony up. For everyone else their silence will be presumed to signify agreement.
I was once a member of the OGBBChurch as We all abbreviate , there was awesome things that felt Biblical , some other issues that seemed close to Scripture but somehow also wrong and then the issues that completely contradicted reason if for anything but tradition or because Our forefathers did Them so They are correct . Such as the uniform ?
I have seen many manipulations over the years from Our Parents , Grandparents , Inlaws , Brethren , Sisters , Ministers , Deacons and fellow Members . Harshness and manipulations HAVE NO PLACE IN Christian Love ! GOD has harshness and issues that seem definite but He is the Creator , He is GOD . Now when anyone in authority over another must use strong arm tactics to enforce FEAR , DISCORD and MANIPULATIONS , where is Christ's example in this ? It becomes the Pharissee Syndrome in which SELF Proclaims My greatness over another . All men and women are NO GREATER than any other , correct ? All were baptised of the same liquid stream of Our Own Choice , correct ? Where does this SUPERIORITY come from , GOD or satan ? Their is no other option , GOD or satan ? Answer it now , study this issue , research , come down off Your high horse or pedestal and get on an even keel with Us Others that sit on the same benches just like You , with the same sin , the same hurts , the same disappointments !
I have read these posts and see the feathers being ruffled and in these times Myself needs to ask that Your emotions be settled before writing and blasting One Another . I appreciate the refraction of the Brother above about the "idiot" comment and I stand corrected and do not want to lambast Anyone . I have walked this road and in My learning I have some wisdom to share , I have been banished and shunned and this manipulation is horrendous . I have been very discouraged at My own sin and then to heap the coals of fire of manipulations of My companion in pressuring others to make a choice betweeen Herself or Me . Christian actions need to be intuned with situations and have charity and assist in Serving One Another in Christlike Actions .
AGAIN , I beg each reader and participant or onlooker to self examine Themselves and implement the actions of a Christlike or Christian response , encouragement and action . We know change is immenent and needed , the Scripture refers to the vine , needed pruning of the vine and bearing of fruit on new growth . As a landscaper , many of Our plants use this system as They bloom and disperse , we prune hard and the roots refortify the body of the plant and They rebloom or set new fruit and thus the enjoyment is prolonged and renewed . GOD knew this process many years back and had it wrote within the Scriptures so We know it as TRUTH and FACT . I do it frequently in winter , after bloom cycles , deadheading in Spring , all for the enjoyment of the bloom and fruit production . Another awesome fact is the seed , pretty much any seed , They need proper handling whether They need moistened or anoculated , warmth , moisture and sunshine planted in good soil . Remember these analogies all through the Scriptures , a seed dies , is reborn and thrives into a plant or tree . REBIRTH and LIFE through the Masters Plan !
Can We begin to Encourage One Another in this new Church that is forming . Help prune this existing plant , fertilize , water , mulch and care for the new vine ? A new branch to co-exist with the old and to encourage others to question There stances in There CHRISTIAN JOURNEY . Growing off of the old vine and root system is a better outcome than completely cutting off and trying to start anew . This old OGBBC sect got Us to present , allowing each of Us to see the need for changes , needing input and communications and a new doctrine followed . Simplistic or weighted again in "minutes and add on bylaws" , another sect of the annabaptist is in the seedling stages . Prayer , self eximinations , discussion , education , wisdom , Love all need to be used in this new process . SERVING others in these times is very fulfilling to Myself and mirrors the example of Jesus in His earthly walk and times .
Intended for the Saints and Sinners in Our walk towards Heaven ,
Brent Roland Holsinger
@davidpendleton - I agree with the whole majority/minority issue. The conservatives ARE the majority, whether people admit it or not. Just a little prediction- I really don't see a whole lot of people's minds being changed here. Sure, there will be some disgruntled folks here and there who will bolt, but a large, mass exodus?? No way, no how. Won't happen. And the ones who do leave, most probably had their minds made up beforehand. The committee's report just gave them the last little shove they needed. I'll be the first to come back on here and admit I'm wrong, if in fact, I am. Someone may need to remind me.
John
@holsinger_brent - Good comments, Brent.
@davidpendleton - Thanks! I will get back now and then as time permits.
Gods Blessings!!
HI MOM!!!
Hey, MOM, I just wanted to give you a big hug (((()))))). That is an internet hug. Haha. Don't worry, your "break" is comin soon. No matter what the "answers " are, I praise God for giving me you as a sister to look up to and learn from. You serve Him in a way that spurs me out of my self centerdness. And we do have others friends, too who encourage us in our many trials.
I am not saying this to try to put a guilt trip on anyone, but please understand that some of us, like our dear sister MOM, are up to our eyeballs in things that leave us little time for intense scrutiny of everything we say or think. We all do the best we can and some of us are spread way to thin.
Love,
Joanie
One of the highlights of next week is a village couple who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, became convicted that they should to get married (instead of living together). So they are saving their wedding for the whole mission team of 65 of us + the interperters, to attend. What kind of wedding gift do you take to a couple who sleep on a hammock instead of a bed, lives in a tiny hut with a mud floor, has no electricity and almost no furniture because there is no room? In Nicaragua it takes three ceremonies to be officially married.
For every major crisis in my life, God has sent major blessings. When I start counting my blessings there's no stopping place. For a week I will be so busy that I won't have time to think of last Tuesday's meeting. I will see heart breaking things that will make our church issues dim in comparison. If everyone could experience a mission trip to a third world country I think it would help get our priorities in proper perspective.
@mom1945 - May God attend your way, next week and always!
@mom1945 - "If everyone could experience a mission trip to a third world country I think it would help get our priorities in proper perspective."
I agree. The problem is those kinds of mission trips are discouraged rather than encouraged in your wayward denomination. The OGBBC doesn't know the meaning of "priorities in proper perspective." All one needs to do is simply look at the OGBBC and one can clearly see where her priorities are. The number one priority of the OGBBC is self-focused self preservation.
@davidpendleton, This may be hard to believe but I've been going on these mission trips for 10 years. In all that time I've never heard one discouraging or negative word from an OGB, against mission trips! :) Many have been very supportive. Sisters from Kansas and different areas of the brotherhood helped sew and fill gift bags for me to take to the children. GBs have gathered to send me off with prayer, and undergirded me with prayer while I was there. My GB brothers and sisters have been exteremly supportive and encouraging!
@mom1945 - "In all that time I've never heard one discouraging or negative word from an OGB, against mission trips!"
Come on, Mom. Let's be honest here. Bearing false witness is not something followers of Christ should be guilty of. You know better than that. Please read that sentence you wrote again, Mom. Are we perhaps suffering from a bit of selective memory? I told you in this very conversation thread that I am really growing weary of GBs lying to me.
@davidpendleton - Actually, David, she could very well be right. I don't know if you have noticed
,but there is one other area that many GB's tend to be quite careful in. That is the area of going to your brother/sister and sharing with him/her alone their concerns. Especially about something like missions. They would much rather tell it all around, many times w/o the facts, than to have any kind of a personal confrontation about it. Especially if they think there is even the remotest chance that they are wrong. And even more especially if they have no back up.
@bafocus_2 - "Actually, David, she could very well be right."
Here is why I think Norma is lying...
Here is her quote again: "I've never heard one discouraging or negative word from an OGB, against mission trips!"
When I was at AM a couple years ago I heard with my own ears PLENTY of discouraging and negative words from NUMEROUS OGBs against mission trips! As you will recall, I was so exasperated by it at the time that I stood to my feet, took my shoes off, shook the dust from my shoes, and walked out of the tent.
Please don't tell me that you've "never heard one discouraging or negative word from an OGB, against mission trips!" If you do, I will call you out on it. It is a lie, and it is, as they say, as plain as the nose on your face.
@mom1945@davidpendleton- In all that time I've never heard one discouraging or negative word from an OGB, against mission trips!
I was sitting in the tent at A.M. in Indiana two years ago and heard more than a few discouraging words against mission trips in the discussion on Article 8. Can't remember the exact words, but they were stated pretty clear. Even clearer than that was the ultimate answer to that particular query.
@bafocus_2 - That is the area of going to your brother/sister and sharing with him/her alone their concerns.
Especially about something like missions. They would much rather tell it all around, many times w/o the facts, than to have any kind of a personal confrontation about it.
Just to clarify here, is this a Matthew 18 type of thing or would this situation not fall under that category? Seems like as clear and prevelant as Matthew 18 is taught in the OGBBC, going to your brother/sister and sharing with him/her alone your concerns shouldn't be that much of a problem. You may agree that this isn't a specific "sin" like Matthew 18 is referring to, but if it isn't, then it should be even easier to approach someone and discuss something like mission trips. It would be for me anyway. What it seems you're suggesting here is that GBs would far rather get on the phone/Internet and spread gossip/rumors (a sin clearly defined several times in Scripture) than use a principle that they clearly spell out before one who desires membership into the church (Matthew 18). (Which every applicant answers in the affirmative to uphold, if I'm not mistaken). Don't know about anyone else, but I see a real problem here.
John
@bafocus_2 - "there is one other area that many GB's tend to be quite careful in. That is the area of going to your brother/sister and sharing with him/her alone their concerns. Especially about something like missions. They would much rather tell it all around, many times w/o the facts, than to have any kind of a personal confrontation about it. Especially if they think there is even the remotest chance that they are wrong. And even more especially if they have no back up."
At least you are being honest here. That, of course, is an indictment on the OGBBC. It is a clear violation of the principles taught in Matt 18, which, interestingly enough, GBs seem to boast they practice quite well.
I am not a gb, but hang with a small core of them, BUT lots of gb's come through on their way to somewhere else, as well as others who are not gb. One time a minister at the local gb church showed up and spent some of the evening hearing all about mom's trip that year to Nicuragua. He had no problem with it and it is well known she does this, along with a group of other gb's. Anyhow, Bruce and I definitely feel odd man out, as our ministries are closer to home because so many gb's we meet are going to Africa and other places. There is a gb couple who have been in China for years and noone has tried to force them home or excommunicate them.
Look at this country. Not everyone agrees with all the laws and some don't obey all the laws and so many of the laws not even "the law" cares about. Some officers in various places don't care about some violations of some laws as much as they care about others. Yet, in some towns one might find a cop preoccupied with all laws or very unpopular laws. In our town people mostly don't care about a lot of laws and do their own thing and once in a while some cop with an attitude makes trouble. We get some snobby person who moves in here and wants to make this rural place like what he just left and he will spur the cops to go after residents who might injure the forever crummy property values here ( nobody wants to drive this far and this is in some sort of Twilight zone One example is that we decided to raise chickens 9 yrs ago. It is not allowed in town, but we did it anyway and noone cared. In fact, some of our neighbors enjoyed it. After doing it for so long we are less likely to have to stop if someone should complain and may have some legal recourse. Because it came to be accepted. It takes time. I would say, in our strong culture here in this town, that we do accept some change, BUT are selective about it. That is much like the GB's in my opinion. They DO want some change and believe me, change is happeneing and will continue to happen. The people who want change have been changing ( sometimes to the extent of leaving) for some time, by simply doing what they feel they ought to do regardless of a rule. In a big group that is how change happens, as you may know. It is gradual and slow, like my husband says - the book is on the table and you don't notice someone moving it a fraction of an inch every day, but in time you suddenly realize it is on the other side of the table. Silence can be a powerful tool and if the tool works, use it.
You could read some Anabaptist books by Stephen Scott and others who chronicle this very thing I am talking about. The GB's are considered "transitional" and have been for a very long time. Slow change. There are stats and photos of the changes within the Mennonites - there are the Old Order, the conservatives who still observe some traditions and drive cars, and then the ones who are nearly unrecognizable in appearance or action, as Mennonites, but who call themeselves so. I have a friend who is a plain pastor's wife in the Church of the Brethren, an offshoot of the GB's, and between what I hear from her and see in the newsletters I get from the revival group within that church the Brethren has been stamped out of this group. it is not just about traditional values, it is about what is right and what is wrong. The homosexuality problems and other things like that. Just floods right on in, once the group draws no lines. My point is that change is happening, has been happening for quite some time, whether you acknowledge it or not. I have had two sources ( one is a dunkard) tell me that a great number of GB's have joined the Dunkards and they are grappling with the influx and the troubles that come with that sort of thing. Several Gb schools have lost much of their enrollment. There is plenty of support out there for a gb who wants change and most of them, from what I hear and see, want those changes to be carefully thought out ( a slow process)and within their "bent" - anabaptism. We all have bents!! Oh yes, we do. It is allowed.
Joanie
Interesting that John and I posted our comments just now at the same time, and we both picked up on the same things.